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 Post subject: Nation balance on Alien Base
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:44 pm 
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Hi everyone,

feel free to post your thoughts in this thread on what you percieve as underpowerd or overpowered when playing on Alien Base.
Stick to Clan Base rules, but the nation mix and number of players can be anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Nation balance on Alien Base
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:40 pm 
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From what I gathered when I talked and played with Bren, the most obvious problem seems to be that Arab really doesn't have much to do after the first 20 or 30 minutes of the game, when there are plenty of HGs around and upgrades are done.

One thing worth trying could be buffing half-track defense a bit with Weapon upgrade 3 and droping siberite price on self-propelled bomb. With siberite engine those half-tracks might be able to deliver their payload more reliably.


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 Post subject: Re: Nation balance on Alien Base
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:36 pm 
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So, when it comes to Arabs, my ideas are to:
    Make flamethrower into a bulldozer and *slightly* increase its damage against buildings to give it an actual purpose;
    Buff Biotechnology upgrade 3 as it serves nearly no purpose right now, either by making it strenghten Arabs' armor, or shortening the research time;
    Buff Arabian WU3: make it increase the speed of half-tracked suspension by 2 (making it even with medium trike), or/and slight armor buff.

While Arabs are weak in late game, they're ridiculously strong in early. Even though Arabs in early are pretty much even to other nations on AB, they have potential to easily crush them on more open maps. Need to be careful not to make their buffs relevant in early game.

Russians need a small tweak, though. Their early is weak, so their odds of survival in 1v1 combat are very slim. But if they survive that early weakness, they become some sort of unstoppable monsters. I think it'd be a good idea to alter space-time technology upgrades:
    0: Time lapsers and Tau-radiation a little stronger;
    1: Time lapsers and Tau-radiation stronger (something like x1.5 of current #2);
    2: Increases the power of teleportation ONLY (make it as strong as it is with tech upgrade 3 now);
    3: Slight nerf to time lapsers (not Tau-radiation!)
Also, shortening the teleportation animation would be a very intuitive change.

That would make Russians still vulnerable to early attacks, but they'd have quite interesting scaling scheme: 1st upgrade would allow them to defend themselves just fine, but the 2nd one (assuming they still live to research it) would make it possible for them to somehow counter rocket launcher rushes, making it possible to survive.
No worries about Russians going for time-space 2 instantly - they NEED WU2 to have even a chance of defending themselves. Can't do both by 10:00. If they do - they won't have cranes, thus long enough attack will destroy them anyway.
The time-space 2 change is supposed to make them relevant in 2v2/3v3 games. Well, I'm not sure if it'd be balanced, but sure I'd like to see it!

As for Americans, lasers serve no purpose now. Well, lasers can obliterate same amount of double guns or rocket launchers, but later on will hit an armoury like a brick wall. Even though lasers are cheaper than double guns and rocket launchers, they take longer to make, and require more electricity to produce - laser add-on requires 15 electricity. Producing rocket launchers or guns in factory and researching stuff in 1 laboratory uses up 55 energy. Producing lasers and researching in 1 lab - 65. If you want to power your stuff with solar power plants - you need to build 4 to produce lasers, opposed to 3 when you run more conventional tactics.
Thus, even if you want to beat a large amount of enemy tanks, it's better to do double guns, as it scales better, and you won't be able to produce more lasers than double guns anyway.
My idea is to make laser add-on use 10 electricity instead of 15. That's it.
Sophorific ammo also needs a tweak, but I have no idea how to balance it.


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 Post subject: Re: Nation balance on Alien Base
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:04 pm 
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Bren wrote:
Make flamethrower into a bulldozer and *slightly* increase its damage against buildings to give it an actual purpose;

Doesn't seem to be possible. Weapon either behaves exactly like a bulldozer or it can't attack trees.
Could it be used instead of rocket launchers with solar engine for mad flamethrower only rush? What if we buffed it's damage against buildings?

Bren wrote:
Buff Arabian WU3: make it increase the speed of half-tracked suspension by 2 (making it even with medium trike), or/and slight armor buff.

Again, might not be possible. Any alternatives?

Bren wrote:
2: Increases the power of teleportation ONLY (make it as strong as it is with tech upgrade 3 now);

I assume you mean teleportation ammo for bazookas?

Bren wrote:
Sophorific ammo also needs a tweak, but I have no idea how to balance it.

Sophorific ammo acts just like any other attack, only its damage determines the probability of success.
We can change the probability (which scales with soldier skill of course), range, reload speed.
I think that the best option would be to shorten its range. Lowering the probability too much wouldn't change the main problem with it which is that it is luck based weapon. Shorter range would require snipers to take more risk for greater gain. It could be even possible to buff the probability, thus changing it from "he got lucky" to "I fucked up and got too close" kind of weapon.



Otherwise I have no objections.


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 Post subject: Re: Nation balance on Alien Base
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:37 pm 
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Enguzrad wrote:
I assume you mean teleportation ammo for bazookas?

TP ammo and limited spontaneous teleportation, as it also scales with space-time research.


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 Post subject: Re: Nation balance on Alien Base
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:53 am 
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Bulldozers are melee. Flamethrowers are ranged. It may be possible (With code changes) to make it so flamethrowers can attack Trees, but melee and ranged can't be merged.

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 Post subject: Re: Nation balance on Alien Base
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:03 pm 
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stucuk wrote:
Bulldozers are melee. Flamethrowers are ranged. It may be possible (With code changes) to make it so flamethrowers can attack Trees, but melee and ranged can't be merged.

It doesn't really matter if flamethrower would behave as ranged or melee but it has to fire the flames while attacking trees. Otherwise it wouldn't be much of a flame-thrower anymore :).


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 Post subject: Re: Nation balance on Alien Base
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:04 pm 
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Bren wrote:
0: Time lapsers and Tau-radiation a little stronger;
1: Time lapsers and Tau-radiation stronger (something like x1.5 of current #2);
2: Increases the power of teleportation ONLY (make it as strong as it is with tech upgrade 3 now);
3: Slight nerf to time lapsers (not Tau-radiation!)[/list]

Could you specify what you mean by "stronger"?
The problem is that there are no upgrades which influence strength of time lapser or decelerator ammo.
There is an upgrade which increases time lapser tau field size and another upgrade which increases decelerator ammo tau field size.
But strength (or intensity) of time lapser is constant defined in game.txt as TIMELAPSER_INTENSITY 700. Similarly there is another constant for decelerator ammo TIMESHIFTING_STRENGTH 900.

Other than that there are TIMELAPSER_MAXLIMIT and TIMELAPSER_MINLIMIT which are limits on tau field size as you bunch up several time lapsers together.
For decelerator rockets there is TIMESHIFTING_DURATION (self explanatory) and TIMESHIFTING_MINLIMIT (which serves as base tau field size).

So we can nerf time lapsing strength but it would be on all technology levels.


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 Post subject: Re: Nation balance on Alien Base
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:57 pm 
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The following is extra stuff you can control in the Game.txt file. Note that these are stuff that i enabled a while back (Likely several years) and i don't know which are used and which arn`t (They all may be used idk). Basically they were constant values originally and i made them variable.

Note that you can't have comments in the game.txt file (So the following would fail as it is written). It however doesn't care about upper/lower case (I think everything else does, but Game.txt doesn't).

Code:
      max_distance 26 //velikost zakladny
      max_distance_bonus 8 //warehouse
      SleptDelay 10
      Kamikaze_Range 4
      Rocket_Range 3
      Mine_Range 3
      Mine_Damage 1000 1000 1000
      OilBarrel_Damage 400 300 300
      Explosion_Damage 100 50 50
      SelfDestruction_Range 5
      SelfDestruction_Damage 1500 250 187   // 1, 1/6, 1/8 effectivity
      // IQ zvíøecích vozidel (mastodont)
      Animal_IQ 0
      RecycleDelay 300;  // cislo ma stejny vyznam jako cas pri cinkonstrukce
      SiberiteRocketIgnition_Delay : integer = 35*5;
      DoubleLaser_max_range 35
      Materialization_Delay 60
      Materialization_Radius 5    // polomer v hexech
      Materialization_Dispersal 3
      Prediction_Dispersal 10     // nepresnost v hexech
      Prediction_Duration 525  //35*15;
      Prediction_Radius 12        // polomer v hexech
      // spotreba turretu a bunkru (nasobitel)
      consumption_min 0 // v klidu
      consumption_max 1   // pri boji
      oil_mining_rate 100
      sib_mining_rate 400
      oil_consume_rate 100
      MaxUnitIdleTime 4200  //35*120;
      MaxTaskExpireTime 140  //35*4
      noble_mastodont_angle 9
      nvlimit  100
      breast_range_bonus 2 4
      armoury_range_bonus 2 4
      barracks_range_bonus 2 4
      breast_sight_bonus 1 1
      armoury_sight_bonus 1 1
      barracks_sight_bonus 1 1
      turret_range_bonus 1 3
      turret_sight_bonus 1 1
      SpecResearchEnergy 50
      MaxAttackRange 37
      zraneni_ve_vybuchujici_budove 20
      zraneni_po_vybuchle_budove 200
      Koeficient_zraneni_ridice_sniperem 4
      limit_ComputerVehicles 6 9 12 15
      limit_RemoteVehicles 6 9 12 15
      limit_SpecProfessions 2 3 4 5

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 Post subject: Re: Nation balance on Alien Base
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 5:22 pm 
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Enguzrad wrote:
Half-Tracked chassis
Speed 12 -> 13
Defense 40 -> 35
Now gets +30% defense on weapon upgrade 3.


Did you actually add an upgrade, or is this track set to special like morphing?


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 Post subject: Re: Nation balance on Alien Base
PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 6:20 pm 
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0dd1 wrote:
Did you actually add an upgrade, or is this track set to special like morphing?

For now the mod uses modified owarOGL.exe which gives morphlings upgrade to chassis marked with movement type halftracked. Originally half-track had tracked movement type.


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 Post subject: Re: Nation balance on Alien Base
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:31 pm 
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After latest tests, I would like to see Arabians be more equal to Americans vehicle wise. The simplest buildup for the latter includes researching only heavy guns and computer control, after which they spam HGs and do upgrades, easily dominating other nations. By this comparison, Arabians should build only siberite lab for the bombs and bio/opto lab for control tech and start producing SP bombs early on to mach the Am. This would require a 2 changes:

1) Combined research time for Siberite techs should be close or equal to researching guns and heavy guns. The requirement of explosives for Sib implosion should probably be removed to simplify things.

2) Ape control needs a tweak. The problem with remote control is that the skills cb are so low it would take 2-3 remote drivers to have a few vehicles with at least level 6. Ape control could be a solution to this, if the upgrade that increases ape driver level from 2 to 6 was Bio1, instead of Bio2. But it would also need a change in the maps code to provide a continuous respawn of apes. As it is, the amount is limited to max 9 on highest setting.


Aside from all that, I think the speed of morphling (shouldn't it be spelled "morphing"?) chassis should be tuned down. As much as the idea of combining wheels and tracks is sound, I don't know by what logic should a heavy vehicle be faster than the medium one. By comparing it with the Russians, I think morphling speed should be 10 or 11 (the speed of us medium track) tops.


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