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 Post subject: US Mission 8: Natural Born Heroes (0 medals)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:51 pm 
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Out of curiosity I've started playing the OW campaigns again with the goal to obtain as little medals as possible. Of course the very first mission won't let you finish with less than one medal for saving John but the next couple of missions went fine without getting any medals and then I came across the mission 8 were by completing the mission you receive 3 medals (Good job, John) for the same thing and I was wondering if there might be a way not to receive those medals while still completing the mission.

I've tried several variations including one where everyone except John dies during the final attack and still getting all the medals. Is it even possible or am I missing something?

Thanks your any replies :-)


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 Post subject: Re: US Mission 8: Natural Born Heroes (0 medals)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:33 am 
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You always get these medals no matter what you do because there are no secondary objectives for this mission. It's just one of many things left unfinished in OW.


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 Post subject: Re: US Mission 8: Natural Born Heroes (0 medals)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:55 pm 
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Thank you for responding, Odd1. I guess I can go on doing other mission then. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: US Mission 8: Natural Born Heroes (0 medals)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:05 am 
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0dd1 wrote:
You always get these medals no matter what you do because there are no secondary objectives for this mission. It's just one of many things left unfinished in OW.


I'm not sure if it was because it wasn't finished. Virgin Interactive the publisher at the time was in financial trouble. They had to sell Westwood Studios (Command and Conquer series) to EA somewhere around 1999-2000 to inject some money into Virgin Interactive for example. So as a result OW had to be rushed out sooner than Altar wanted (As they wanted to have Arabians as well as Skirmish maps, where Skirmish maps would have been standalone singleplayer missions which could be comparable to the unique multiplayer map modes. Though they were also working on AI that could make a base, etc). As a result they at one point decided to not work on Arabian missions and instead have it as an Expansion pack(They did work on missions 1 to 4 of the Arabian Campaign some of which is in the Arabian Campaign workshop mod).

The problem was that as Virgin Interactive didn't have alot of money when OW was released (IIRC it died 1-2 years after OW's release) they didn't do alot of Marketing. Basically hardly anyone knew OW existed. In the Czech Republic Altar handled the publishing as far as i am aware which is why there is a good number of Czech's in the community and in Poland OW was given away for free on a PC Magazine. Outside of Czech Republic and Poland there was no real marketing effort which doomed OW.

But that doesn't mean that the American/Russian campaigns were necessarily rushed. Martin Klima in an interview did state that it took them longer than expected to balance the American and Russian campaigns, iirc he said an entire year which is more than enough time to have added 2 medals to mission 8.

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 Post subject: Re: US Mission 8: Natural Born Heroes (0 medals)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:10 pm 
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I have no doubt that a lot of work has been put into these campaigns. Still, it seems like the least they could have added here was a medal for little losses or defeating the Russians before help arrives. Compared with the rest of the campaign it makes the mission look kind of raw and really seems like it would have been more developed, if they weren't forced to cut corners to finish the game at all.


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 Post subject: Re: US Mission 8: Natural Born Heroes (0 medals)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:40 pm 
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Their design document only lists 1 medal. I think it was a conscious decision to just have a single medal as i seriously don't see how it would take them a long time to implement more than 1.


Scroll down to where it says medals:
Quote:
8. Natural Born Heroes
Briefing
The Americans were supposed to attack a weak Russian base but the tables were turned. Now an undermanned American base must defend itself against their invincible enemy.
Co-ordinates
Gamma Base; September 30, ERA + 1
Dialogues
>JMM Macmillan
>Har Harrison
>Pow Powell
>Don Donaldson
>Brown Brown
>VanH VanHouten
>Lisa Lisa
>Joan Joan
>Glad Gladstone
>Sol1 Soldier1
>FSol1 FSoldier1
Dialogue 1 (immediately after the start of the mission)
Donaldson: [present: alt a1] (over radio) This is Gamma base calling all stations. (there is the sound of gunfire followed by an explosion.) We are under attack. Reinforcements required urgently.
Brown: [present: alt a2] (over radio) This is Gamma base. We need help! Where the hell is everyone! (there is the sound of gunfire followed by an explosion.) We can’t last much longer!
VanHouten: [present: alt a3] (over radio) This is Gamma base. Send reinforcements immediately. (there is the sound of gunfire followed by an explosion.) We haven’t long left.
Harrison: (over radio) Gamma this is Alpha, Macmillan is returning with Delta Force (these are two separate forces – people (mostly scientists) from Delta and Macmillan and his men who were destroying Russian base in previous mission).
Donaldson: [present: alt a1] (over radio) That might not be enough.
Brown: [present: alt a2] (over radio) What’s that going to do! We need numbers. The Russians are everywhere.
VanHouten: [present: alt a3] (over radio) We need more men than that.
Harrison: It’s all we’ve got. We’re under attack ourselves.
Objective change 1
Add Main defend
# Protect the base.
End
Dialogue 2 (some half minute later – appears forces of Delta)
Gladstone: [present: alt a1] Where’s John?
Soldier1: [present: alt a2] We made it. Where’s the Captain?
FSoldier1: [present: alt a3] We made it. Where’s the Captain?
Donaldson: [$she is commander] He’s on his way. I’m in command until he gets here.
Brown: [$he is commander] What do you think I’m asking myself!? He’s the only chance we’ve got. The bastard better hurry.
VanHouten: [$he is commander] He’ll be here soon. We’ve got to hold on until he arrives.
Dialogue 3 (when Macmillan returns)
Macmillan: All right. I’m back in command. Let’s hope we’re not too late.
Donaldson: [she is commander] Good to see you Captain, I knew you’d make it.
Brown: [he is commander] Better late than never. I hope!
VanHouten: [he is commander] Captain Macmillan, Lt. Van Houten.
Soldier1: [Donaldson was commander and she died] Lieutenant Donaldson was killed sir.
Soldier1: [Brown was commander and died] Lieutenant Brown was killed sir.
Soldier1: [VanHouten was commander and died] Lieutenant Van Houten was killed sir.
Soldier1: (cont.) Thank God you’re here.
Macmillan: That’s bad news. But I’m in command now. Let’s show those bastards what we can do.
Dialogue 3a (after 3 if Joan alive)
Joan: John! I was scared they’d kill you.
Macmillan: It’s OK. We’re gonna be fine.
Dialogue 3b (after 3 if Joan died in this mission)
Macmillan: Where’s Joan?
Donaldson: [she is commander] I’m sorry, sir. There was nothing we could do.
Brown: [he is commander] They killed her Captain. And they’ll kill us all if we don’t move!
VanHouten: [he is commander] Doctor Ferguson? I’m sorry, sir. She died during the attack.
Soldier1: [commander is dead] Doctor Ferguson? I’m sorry, sir. She died during the attack.
Macmillan: She can’t be dead. She can’t!
Lisa: [present] John...please...we have to repel the Russians. Everyone is depending on you now.
Dialogue 4 (some 25 minutes in the mission)
Powell: (over radio) This is Colonel Powell calling all bases. General Harrison is wounded. I’ve taken command. Await further orders.
Macmillan: This is Macmillan here. How badly is he wounded?
Powell: This isn’t a time for talking Macmillan. There are lives at stake.
Macmillan: You don’t have to tell me, we’re in deep shit.
Powell: Once we’ve got things under control we’ll send you reinforcements. Get on with your job Macmillan.
Dialogue 4a (some 5 minutes later)
Powell: (over radio) Alpha calling Gamma. We’ve repelled the attack here. Reinforcements will be with you in ten minutes. I repeat, reinforcements ten minutes away.
Dialogue 5 (some 10 minutes later)
Sikorski: We’re here Macmillan, just in time to save your ass!
Macmillan: [depending on global situation: alt a1] Too late, major. The job’s already done.
Macmillan: [depending on global situation: alt a2] OK Major, show us what you can do.
Macmillan: [depending on global situation: alt a3] Major Sikorski! Good to see you. We didn’t have much time left.
Sikorski: Let’s show the Lenin-loving bastards who rules. Ready for a counter attack?
Query Sikorski
Major Sikorski wants you to make a counterattack with him. What’s your reaction?
#1 OK. We’re ready when you are.
#2 We need five minutes to regroup.
#3 You’re joking. We’re in no state to attack anyone now.
Dialogue 5a (QSikorski-1)
Sikorski: Good man Macmillan… my team will attack in one minute. Try to stay with us.
Dialogue 5b (QSikorski-2)
Sikorski: OK, take your five minutes. Then we go buddy.
Dialogue 5c (QSikorski-3)
Sikorski: What do you want to do Macmillan? Sit on your ass while we risk our lives for you?
Macmillan: I’m telling you we don’t have the power for a counterattack. There are just too many of them.
Sikorski: Tough shit Macmillan. I’m giving you an order. My team attacks in five minutes and you’re coming with us.
Dialogue 6 (one or five minutes later)
Sikorski: OK Macmillan. Co-ordinate your attack with ours. Let’s go clean up the planet.
Objective change 2
Add Main push
# Together with major Sikorski team drive Russians from map
End
Dialogue 7 (during combat)
Sikorski: Kill them all, guys.
Dialogue 7a (during combat, if Macmillan is in combat)
Sikorski: That’s the way Macmillan, mow the bastards down.
Dialogue 7b (during combat, if Macmillan isn’t in combat and is far from it)
Sikorski: Macmillan, you yellow shit, where are you?
Dialogue 8a (after combat, if Macmillan’s forces didn’t attack and Sikorski is dead)
Powell: Macmillan, you disobeyed the orders of a senior officer who is dead as a result. Get your ass over to Alpha, you’re facing a court martial.
Dialogue 8b (after combat, if Macmillan’s forces didn’t attack and Sikorski is alive)
Powell: Macmillan, major Sikorski reports that you defied his orders. You jeopardised the success of the mission! Return to Alpha for court martial.
Dialogue 8c (if all reinforcements are dead)
Powell: Macmillan, you disobeyed the orders of a senior officer. As a result that officer is now dead! You’re relieved of command. Return to Alpha for court martial.
Dialogue 9 (after victory combat if Macmillan’s forces take part in it)
Sikorski: Nothing like battle is there Macmillan? You’re not a bad soldier.
Dialogue C (after first computer controlled vehicle goes to red and someone is near)
Soldier1: Shit. Where’s the driver? The Russians have got remote vehicles now!
FSoldier1: I don’t get it. No driver. The bastards have remote vehicles too.
Dialogue Ca (if dialogue 5 takes place before JMM arrives, then some time after 3, 3a and 3b)
Soldier1: Captain, it looks as if the Russians have remotely controlled vehicles.
Dialogue Cb (after 5 or 5a)
Macmillan: That’s not all they’ve got. We’ve seen turrets controlled by computers in the South.
Soldier1: Shit. So the cars are probably run by computer too. That’s why there’s no antennae. At least the programs pretty bad. They drive like my grandmother!
Macmillan: Let’s hope it works in our favour.
Counter 1
Time to the beginning of attack: %t
Victory Main
Base protected, Russians driven out
Loss Destroyed
You did not protect the base
Loss JMM
John Macmillan died.
Loss Dismissed
You were relieved of command
Medal nothing1
+
Medal nothing2
+
Medal perfect
+ Good job, John.

input
character
JMM
Cyrus
Bobby
Lisa
Frank
Donaldson
Brown
Denis
Joan
Gladstone
Yamoko
otherGamma2 (starts at Gamma2)
otherDelta (commes at start from right)
otherUnplaced (starts at Gamma2)
otherJMM (appears with JMM later)
variables
Time (how much time after first dialog JMM returns)
Gamma2Commander (1 - Donaldson, 2 - Brown, 3 - VanHouten)
CyrusLoc (1 - Alpha,
2 - Gamma,
3 - Delta,
4 - with JMM)
BobbyLoc
LisaLoc
FrankLoc
DonaldsonLoc
BrownLoc
GladstoneLoc
DenisLoc
Gamma2 (list of buildings and its parameters defining base Gamma)

output
character
JMM
Cyrus
Bobby
Lisa
Frank
Donaldson
Brown
Denis
Joan
Gladstone
Yamoko
Sikorski
VanHouten
otherGamma23 (all other who survived this mission)
variables
Gamma2 (list of buildings and its parameters defining base Gamma)

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 Post subject: Re: US Mission 8: Natural Born Heroes (0 medals)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:59 pm 
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Well, maybe that is right. I noticed that the technical differences between campaigns, are that the Russian one has overall a better structure but doesn't put so much focus on developing the characters, and on the other hand, the American campaign has more developed characters but mission structure suffers for it. Where in Russian campaign there's steady gradual development of technologies all the way through and only one mission just about fighting, in American campaign there are missions 7, 8, 11 and optionally 12 where there's little to do except fighting. So there's definitely the tendency for this kind of simple and quick missions, but this also leaves a lot of technologies not introduced. You use some low tech for 2/3 of the campaign and then you suddenly have even the laser and advanced chassis made available without a word said about them.
I just personally think it would be better if it was more like in the Russian one.

btw where does this outline come from? I'd be interested to see if there were any more unused ideas, beside what's left over in the game files.


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 Post subject: Re: US Mission 8: Natural Born Heroes (0 medals)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:56 am 
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0dd1 wrote:
btw where does this outline come from? I'd be interested to see if there were any more unused ideas, beside what's left over in the game files.


My hard drive :P .


Attachments:
RuDone.rar [126.63 KiB]
Downloaded 5 times
AmEng-done.rar [115.46 KiB]
Downloaded 6 times

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 Post subject: Re: US Mission 8: Natural Born Heroes (0 medals)
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 4:40 pm 
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I think you're spot on, Odd1. That's why everyone should play both campaigns. I'm kind of digging the different approach they took. It's very fitting imo.


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 Post subject: Re: US Mission 8: Natural Born Heroes (0 medals)
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 11:23 pm 
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1 medal or 3 I still thing you shoud be able to get away with getting none whatsoever. Other missions allow that and I don't think it would have been that difficult to introduce some at least minor concequences to not getting that one medal.


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